Hi all, Just thought I'd see what's your opinon on my frankenviffer. In the process of Jigging the engine. frontends going to be hossack based.

How did you guess? Yes I read - or tried to read as best i could, Tony Foales book. i'm trying to emulate his contruction methods as they seem to work. He did some great experiments with rake and trial which is where I got the 15 degrees from. apparently the trail is the most contributing factor on stablity. The nice thing about a hossack frontend is being able to change the geometry more easily.
Tony has also produced FFE software which makes calculating upright and link lengths a doddle.

on another point - I like your bettle sound idea was thinking of calling the bike scarab but your bettle sounds better!

scarab 13.jpg
I have used the Scarab name too. Triple I made for my Frankenviffer project.

Yeah OK, invisible in real life just not in CAD! whole bikes just a load of parts at the monent 'just have to piece them together !

Yes. But don't follow my example.
http://www.vfrdiscussion.com/forum/index.p...f+frankenviffer

Top of frame coming together - turned bushes hold tubes in place on threaded rod - airbox wil need a little diet to fit. Has anyone tried ram air modification with a VFR?

I thought about using 2 vacuum cleaner hoses, (bit like a Kwak ZXR750) porting it though the existing snorkel hole and flapper valve - as you can see there should be enough room without the standard headstock. surely a bit more clean air can only help! Were the Oz guys using a power commander?

Cheers for that. I think that a power commander 3 is the way to go, athough this looks very interesting? http://www.bgsoflex.com/megasquirt.html DIY fully programable fuel injection system.

Alot of posts about seats flying around...

Here's my frankenviffers seat - 2 inches taken out of middle section and 3 from the back. leather is from an old horse saddle.
i'm liking the look of the sargent though might take some more foam off the sides?

Hi all!

Another installment in the development of a frankenviffer.

it's been a while but i've made some progress...

most of the frame tubes are tacked together.





designed and cut/tacked the rear sub-frame






Cut tubes and made a jig for the hossack forks




Made a wood frame to hold the Sv650 upper fairing in place plus mocked up some 'handle bars to check positioning.



Engineering drawings are at a local engineers.
i'm now waiting on costings for bearing holders, bushes, steering head bearing mounts, more sub-frame bushes and
front /rear shock mountings.

Hoping for some encouragement from you guys on the build! :thumbsup:

If you could move the foot pegs on your 5th gen where would you like them? I've been debating 40mm up from stock?

Redmarque

Thanks guy's!

Adjustable pegs does seam the most logical way to go. I've been trying to keep the cost down, so cnc machined is out of the question at the moment.
i've sourced a pair of hangers and pegs from cbr600 f3 which I could fit to an adjustable back plate. Gear linkage might be an issue. as the connector rod hits the sproket cover!

Yep would really love a ToroCharger! I think I better get the machine running first!

Cracks are usually from areas where the welds have cooled hard. 4140 tubing is amazingly resilent to cracking and has a high strength, even hot. I don't know what you're using to connect with (stick, MIG, TIG, brazing) but TIG is the current favored method, plus if you normalize the welds and tubing afterwords, the residual strees, and the tendency to crack should disappear. If in doubt as to the strength, or even the stress under use, gusseting at joints is a good idea.

Just my $.02 worth.

BTW, Before you put pegs on, I would get measured to you so they're comfortable. In Other word, sit on it and have someone mark where to put them when you're comfortable.

Larry
VFRrider

BTW, absolute fan of advanced frame mechanics. My NEXT project will be a semi frameless design, ala GTS1000. Parts are here, time is not.

This is good. Very good.

Those cad plots wrapped around the tubes - do you plot the developed shape, tape it to the tube then grind for accurate fit-up? Nice move.

Is that going to be a pivoted tail section? Two crosswise tubes next to each other. I had a Vincent (Comet) so have experienced an articulated tail section - it is not noticeable at all with the Vincent geometry.

I see the full scale plot of the front end legs.

I am retired & have a cnc machining center in my workshop (Haas VF2). I would be happy to machine some rearsets for you. Send me a plot file and an aegis (spelling?). I run Cimatron 9 CAD/CAM but my pre-release version is very flaky about importing aegis (sp?) hence the request for plot file. I won't charge you - I would feel honoured to be associated with this project (& also the ToroCharger project)
Check my gallery for shots of the upper triple I made - plus some informative disasters.

You have not blanked off the throttle bodies. Do it now.

Yes Sir Mr tok tokkie!! Your wish is my command! will cut some card circles and tape up the thottle bodies asap!


FANTASTIC offer to CNC! Tok. That would be ace! I really liked your triple clamp a very professional job!
Can you deal with autocad dxf files? as I don't think i can write G codes!
Is the "aegis" the raw code that will control your CNC mill? Would be very happy to pay for materials and shipping!
and your guaranteed a ride and a place to stay when it's finished!

The tube profiles in paper (shown on forks) are created using a free piece of software called tubemiter which can be found here http://www.ozhpv.org.au/shed/tubemiter.htm Just input the size of the tube and wall thickness of both tubes to join plus the angle and it will print the profile on A4 paper using any printer - makes the job much easier!

The two tubes you can see joining the sub-frame to main frame still need to be cut. the middle section will be welded to the mainframe with bushes to hold the sub-section. - Will post some more pics when cut to show the idea, so unfortunatly it's not articulated but will make changing sub-frames easy. could always do a full touring sub-frame with luggage/rack points built in and a nice coffy seat!

If i'm going to design some hangers and pegs for my project bike, it would be really good to make them as replacement for standard 5th Gen ones, then everyone can have lovely rear sets?

Aegis should be iges I think. It is an industry standard for exporting & importing between different cad.cam programs. I just want the wireframe drawing (no solids thanks) so I can re-create it in my Cimatron & generate the toolpaths from there. Using other peoples g-code is really not an option I would like to explore.
A dxf file should be fine - I can have it plotted and then re-create it myself.
I will pm my e-mail to you. I take it there is no rush about this thing.

No sketches, all in my head right this moment, and scattered all over the garage. Motor=GV1400 from Suzuki. 1400 V4. Front end, GTS1000 SSS, rear end, GL1800 SSS, shaft drive, ST1300 tank and seat, 5th gen VFR rear wheels, front and back. Designed as the long distance tourer, no compromise. Even will have luggage, ala Uni cart with Samsonite hard luggage.

To far off right now to take up your thread, we're watching closely.

Now, back to my RC replica.

Larry
VFRwalker

Something wicked this way comes.

Now I know you guys love pictures....

loft insulation foam has other uses. I've had do ditch the projector headlamp for now as i couldn't find enough space!



Next job is to cut air intakes for the ram air system each side. apologies for the state of my garage... i'm not so worried about you seeing the mess after checking out vfrriders cool project!

Promised a while ago to post pic of the front mudguard plug.



Painted it with 'reface' a special polyester high build filler/sealer which won't react with fibreglass gel coat. please don't ever try normal car paint as the chemical reaction makes a right mess!

Fork jig still needs stops welded on to position tubes correctly.



More updates and pics soon.... Redmarque

I am truly honored! to my post being moved to "Featured Modifications!"

Big thanks to everyone at VFRD!

Uh-oh - where's the ToroCharger drive belt gonna go???

Was the projector headlight clearance issue caused by the Hossack set-up (centrally mounted shock)?? Those headlights certainly need some depth. Not only is the assembly quite long (at least 150mm, or 6" for the metrically-challenged) but the lens itself needs some clearance as it will melt anything plastic that's too close. I'm juggling projector lens headlights myself.

One more thing - don't rush it just coz we're so demanding of pictures I owe the collective a heap of pics, but I'm having to just go on with things according to plan, although the temptation is there to slap things together just for photos - oh, hi there AB, the pics are on the way!!

Just going right back to the beginning for a moment... is the front wheel in the pic destined to be there on the final product? If so, may I suggest a Marchesini three-spoke rear wheel to match... (yep, I'm the master of the unlimited budget suggestion ). How gorgeous is this bike??? I'd normally take an RC45 over an RC30 any day, but this bike sure makes me stop and think.

ToroCharger installs on the right side of the engine if my memory serves? so don't worry!

Yep got it in one Projector headlight rear end would get hit buy the hossack fork - headstock supports. a traditional headstock is alot nearer the tank!

Point taken Phantom, I 'attached' the tubes just to see what it would look like, after a hour of measuring, profile cutting, getting it wrong and remaking - it's nice to see some results

Not sure why but finding a VFR 6 spoke at a reasonable price is quite hard in the UK , so yes this is a cbr600f4 front. Uses the same 296mm disks and hollow axle. If the design proves a success mr credit card might take a bashing. Would be fab to have a lovely set of Marchesini's of any type!
RC30-45 lovely! Make mine an NR750!

Interesting. I'm wondering how the frame geometry was decided, including: wheel base, rake, trail, front/rear weight bias, anti-dive proportion. Judging from the front suspension arm angles (close to parallel), it may produce about 5% anti-dive in initial suspension travel. Was that your aim?

HI Arion, ah the 'magic' numbers! There is no real mystery on how the dimensions came to me.
Firstly i wanted the wheel base as short as possible, the VFR engine and many v-twins are very long front to back so I initally drew the front wheel as close to the forward cylinders as possible allowing for flex under heavy braking. The vfr swingarm length was already decided for me by Mr Honda. So that's the overall wheelbase!
Rake - don't know if any of you guy's have read Tony Foale's Motorcycle Handling and Chassis Design? Anyway in Tony's book he tried a few experiments with rake and trail on a BMW with various rake angles, Standard - 15 Degrees and zero. He noted that the bike was just as stable with 15 or 0 rake but experienced telescopic fork judder. (tele's were pretty naff then) One thing he did notice is that steering was quicker with a steeper rake.. hence the fashion for GP/Race bikes to have steeper rakes than 5-10 years ago.

I guess I wanted to see what an even steeper rake would handle like? especially with vfr power.

Trail - the most determining factor on stability and a motorcycles self-centering effect. shorter trail - less effect -but less stable. longer - more effect - more stable.

I've design the trail to be 96mm at the moment as this about the same as a CBR600RR - known for impressive cornering.

Anti-Dive - perchased a copy of Tony's FFE (Funny Front End) Software for this.
I didn't want the first ride to be too dangerous so the current geometry is pro-dive bias so that it didn't feel really unfamiliar (the lengths of suspension arms can be altered to change this later)

disclaimer : I am no expert on this ! it's a trial by fire approach!

Your input would be most apreciated! :thumbsup:

That's alright, I'm pretty sure only Norman Hossack himself and a few engineers at BMW can claim to be experts on this type of suspension system. That said, I'll offer my 2¢ on what I've studied of Hossack suspension systems.



If you examine the image of the BMW K1200S, you'll notice that the front wheel is a long way in front of the engine relative to telescopic fork equipped bikes. That's because both Norman and BMW independently found that these suspension systems work best with a 50:50 front/rear weight bias, just as the best/ideal sports cars do. This is one aspect that is very different from front heavy telescopic fork equipped sports bikes, the VFR800 and CBR600 included.

The positioning and angling of the front suspension arms also indicates that there is significant anti-dive designed into the BMW system, taking advantage of one aspect of Hossack systems.

If you're to use the existing Honda swing arm then you have little choice: shortening the wheelbase will require a higher front weight bias. This will however be even higher than the telescopic fork equipped VFR800, and so even further from the ideal for a Hossack. One option you might consider in getting a shorter wheel base and 50:50 weight distribution is fabricating a new single-sided swing arm from steel tubing, similar to what Ducati has already done on the MH900e and other bikes. Another option would be a conventional double-sided swing arm, but with the associated loss of a VFR identifier.

Whatever you decide, I admire your spirit. Besides, no matter how much analysing and discussing, there is no substitute for prototyping and testing.

Good luck. It would be interesting to see some track test results. The weight loss alone should be significant.

Great Arion! this is just the type of input I've been looking for! hossack suspension is really an unknown quantity.

I agree that to adjust the weight bias using a custom swingarm would be the best solution as I don't really want to increase the wheelbase or rake\trail

Will just have to see how it works with the VFR swingarm first.

On your advise I am going to re-address the anti-dive situation. Tok Tokkie has suggested 60% anti-dive? I think I will try and calculate how much BMW used by scaling up the pic and entering in FFE software.

On another note.

My copy of the VOSA MSVA Inspection Manual arrived yesterday! It's the UK Vehicle & Operator Services Agency Motorcycle Single Vehicle Approval Inspection Manual. ( yawn ) basically when you build a one-off bike in the UK it has to undergo an engineers report before they will alocate a Identification Number and allow a Registration number to be assigned to it. 29 Chapters of rules and regs about how high the lights are allowed to be, where the number plate can go. if any of the parts will cause injury, brake testing and exhaust noise etc. Great bed time reading!

I can see why most people use an existing frame and modify it saves loads of hassle!

Been pondering the anti-dive on my design...

Arion seemed to thing it may produce about 5% anti-dive in initial suspension travel which got me very worried

At the time i hadn't got my laptop with the FFE software installed.. but I picked it up this evening and went over the design again.

Here are the graphs for anti-dive, rake, trail and wheel trajectory. lets say that sag is 25-30 mm and over all suspension movement is 120mm (same as standard VFR)



As you can see the anti-dive after 30mm goes upto 50% in the next 60mm of travel. If the base link is shorted by 5mm anti-dive goes up to 60% in the same distance. phew! what a relef!

Those FFE graphs are way cool!

Good to see more progress, thanks for the update/s.

On the FFE graph of anti-dive percentage:
1. It changes from pro-dive to anti-dive at about 35mm wheel deflection. Is 0 wheel deflection when forks are fully extended (ie front wheel just about airborne)? If so then 35mm is about normal static pre-load so it will be anti-dive under all normal conditions.
2. What does the curve for normal tele forks look like. I appreciate it is pro-dive all the way but it must be progressively less as the spring loads up I would expect.

Yes that's right Tok. Zero is fork fully extended. So normal pre-load should be at about 25-30mm. I should be able to change this as the front shock top mounting will be adjustable for ride-hight.

What does the curve for normal tele forks look like?... don't know? Though I imagine pretty disgusting in comparision.. I'll have to check whether the FFE software can calculate it?

As for progressive - the graph shows a steady increase in anti-dive upto full travel. (If mr foale's maths is correct) also the rising-rate linkage will increase the force on the spring the further it's compressed too.


P.S. if MR Ohlins is reading this, I could really do with a nice pair of shocks to test with?

Only a small update for now...

My ducati monster... Opps! franken VFR is coming on nicely...
Picked up the main engine carrier bushes on the weekend, so a few more tubes cut and fitted.



Had an inital quote for the custom yoke too - £500!
Going to see if I can leave work early this week to visit the machine shop and discuss options.
(one of the engineers has built grasstrack bikes before, so hopefully I can get someone excited about making bikes) I'm hoping that simplifying the design will bring the machining cost down.

Has anyone used http://www.emachineshop.com?

Keep riding!

Redmarque

I'm with Ralph, but given the effort that's gone into this so far I had to wonder whether it was perhaps a bit of an illusion. So I went back a page and found this.



I'm going to guess that with the bolts out the cam cover can be moved down and out?

Also enjoyed seeing this again (I just jump to the latest page so I forget what's gone before):



RedMarque, given the (so far) minimalist bodywork you seem to favour, what do you have in mind for the rear end? Because something that looks so right simply should not be covered

May I suggest an LED tail-light with internal wiring in one of the rear horizontal tubes - if in the lower one it would certainly be unobtrusive.

Regarding www.emachineshop.com - I recall a guy from the VFR 'big list' who used them and was very happy with the result - IIRC it was for a mount for a camera/GPS/something. Sorry I can't give any more info than that.

Murray has it right, that was the tale.

http://www.bytebrothers.org/Reviews/eMachineShop/Default.htm

Great info on emachineshop thanks guy's. You should try their free cad software.. might inspire someone?

Valve clearances? wot r doze? no seriously the engine is bolted to the frame at 6 points with spacers, so discontecting (labelled) wiring and rad plumbing will be a slight mission. I didn't want the overall structure compromised but the thought was there when I positioned the tubes. A sacrifice of having a rising rate linkage on the front shock/wishbones

The rear-end. - Yes i'm pleased with the shape too and after looking at a zx6r i'm confident that it's going to be strong enough for 2up.

Unfortunatly those lovely tubes are going to be covered!

I've sourced some, wait for it... Vespa indicators and rear light from an ET4. don't worry as they won't be recognisable! there shape will be changed by apatures in the bodywork. stop lamp will be upside-down and re wired with leds (I can feel another browser being launched and Vespa et4 typed in to google)

That (yawn) interesting book on motorcycle assessment (MSVA) states that indicators need to be at least 180mm apart on the rear and 240mm at the front!

Better get back to the angle grinder... Redmarque

Well guys Happy New Year!
Thought i'd show you what's been going on in the redmarque garage....

The grider's been whizzing.
I've finally have a good engineering company on board with a cnc mill and an guy whom makes grass track sidecar outfits to do the tig welding.


I've finished constructing the rear sub-frame mounts
Fitted the rear shock ride-height adjuster (zx-9r shock)



Filled and primed the tank I do like this view :salesman:



Had fork bottom/axle clamps made
(sorry dodgy focus)



Constructed the fork and headstock jig





Sourced a CBR 600 F4i rear shock for the front sus, currently using a fireblade dogbone.
(Probably have to make a bespoke one later.)

Cut and jigged top and bottom suspension wishbones
I Hope these are going to be strong enough!




Hopefully all will be welded in the next few weeks. Wishbone bearing holders are being made this week along with top/base stem clamps.

Well thats' all for now!

Tubes are 1.5mm so you were pretty close! Hopefully it will be way lighter than stock, but as i don't have finite element analysis and as I don't fancy it folding up on me first ride I've really been cautions with the construction especally on the double wishbones. I think if i was making another it would be nice to use larger bore Aluminium tube. I have no idea how much it will weigh - but will atempt the bathroom scales under each wheel when it's a bit further along. the fork clamps are steel and really need some serious lightening done before welding.

I've been thinking about getting the motor overbored to 836cc - TTS engineering do it in the UK for about $800?

Any suggestions to where the torocharger could be fitted??

Is the front suspension shock unit going to live down there? That is where John Britten fitted his rear suspension shock unit. All knowledgeable motorcyclists will immediately recognise who you are tipping your hat to there. If it is as it looks how are you going to invert displacement so upward deflection of the wheel results in compression of the shock unit?

What are your intentions about a radiator? Looks like plenty of space between the shock & engine for a conventional superbike radiator.

Hi Tok!

No the shock is dangling because the top mounting hasn't been fitted yet! Though i'll look into that option now you've mentioned it! I'm a bit worried about the radiator myself . I have a pair of 99 firestorm ones that I was thinking of mounting each side? (btw the direction of flow on firestorm rads is the oposite from a vfr) but recently i've looked at late model gsxr ones that are curved. There's alot less space when the exhaust is fitted - especially the stock system as there's quite a curve exiting the ports.

open to suggestions on radiator/s?

Redmarque

Tok, I've soured a ducati 748/916 radiator which should fit below the front suspension linkage. should look good too as it has a nice curve to it.

Yep, but a carbed model. May eventually try on EFI modded engine. Actually just a cold air source, not sealed.

Easy way, use the turn signal holes, with cut out signal lenses, and place a 2" OD flexible heater hose (metal) over turn signal snout on back. Curl up over fairing mount on side and down into side intake holes. Works and is very tight. But the hose is the secret, has body and flex.

Larry
VFRrider

Took a trip to the Machine Shop this morning.... It felt like Christmas..

Loads of CNC'd Parts finished!

Yoke and Handlebar clamps. made from aircraft grade aluminium



Head Bearing holder Steel as will be welded to the frame.



Double Wishbone bearing holders Small bike bearings -with Steel reducers to 12mm



Top and Bottom Stem Clamps



Would have liked to have the sharp corners taken off but machining time is $$$ - maybe later or MK2?

Next job to press all bearings in straight!

Can't wait to see what they will look like on the bike!

Da Dah! :thumbsup:
Squeezed the bearings in using the vice.. it fits! Cinderella you shall go to the ball!

Thanks Fly. Was beginning to feel a bit despondent about the project. Please you like it so far.
Your suggestion on a 211 Tail is most appreciated, but I've already plans for Fiber glassing my own design bodywork - I started the project with a Suzuki SV upper fairing - I butchered it even more now! messing around with the shape hopefully when I’ve finished with it, it won't look sv at all! Makes a good basis to work from as making a fairing shape from scratch would be even harder! Making bodywork symmetrical is probably the biggest challenge

Redmarque is Dark, mean and Moody today.
- Wishbones - rear sub frame - rear shock linkage - headstock - radiator and oil cooler mount are all with the welder!

So whilst i've been waiting and a with little time at work, I thought i'd scour fleabay for some top parts! today's arrival was a lovely new pair of braking wave discs at a bargain price of £150 delivered! I've lined up some R1 calipers to clamp these bad boys too!

All the photos are Black & White today - kinda arty-atmospheric!



Next another good find and back to my original idea of stacked headlights - KTM RC8 meets Hayabusa!



A few posts ago I had some cnc work done. Once the 7/8th handlebar tube was sourced in a length under 6 metres.
the yoke/clamp/bar combo is coming together nicely.



5th Gen Master cylinder and clutch finished of with shorty pazzos



Now i do believe that scooters have a good use... hack the integrated indicators out and use for a experiment with tail unit shaping - after all this is going to be a road bike. I never did understand why lindicators always look bad sticking out?



The type of idea i'm looking for will be a sleek blend around the back seat edge and narrowing down to the tank.



Would welcome some comments and suggestions?

Ride Safe! Redmarque

Welding commenced today!

The frame finally is out of it's cage - there's now an empty space on the garage floor were a jig used to be!

How long have i waited for this day!
Here's James scorching metal with his water cooled tig welder - the hose off his helmet is used to supply "fresh" air from the waist pack behind his back - hope he didn't have a curry last night!



having a workshop day tomorrow so watch this space!

It would be interesting if you weighed your new frame. Maybe someone else who has a loose stock 5th gen frame could weigh that as well for comparison?

7.6 kg without lower bearing race.
http://www.vfrdiscussion.com/forum/index.p...c=16292&hl=
The frame looks gorgeous. Waiting to see the forks, not sure about them.

I'll get on the scales with it on monday as i'm away until then. i'm guessing is under 5kg.

Dropped the frame over the engine before leaving home today. Good to 'see' what it would look like

forks are out of the jig now plus sub-frames welding is complete - will be over James workshop next Sat too carry on scissor linkage to connect yokes to fork.

7Kg - The best I can do with bathroom scales!

It would be interesting to compare rear sub-frame /fork-yoke weight aswell if someone has these?

I thought it would be close!


Now, the weight of the completed bike with a full load of fliuds?


I'm guessing 460 Lbs, if you're going with minimalist bodywork.